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ok, i'd been leaving this alone to see if the thread would just disappear off of the page, but since that hasn't happened and people are still chiming in, there are a couple of things i wanna say. first of all, Strechin, i suppose i was out of line when i said that it seemed to me that you might have unresolved issues of your own. rather, i could/should have made my point more tactfully, but i was a little huffy because i felt patronized. secondly, i don't want to be having an argument and throwing low blows, and i apologize to everyone who's been a part of this thread for whatever part i've played in that.

now, there have been further developments and it seems that things are finally stabilizing, but as that process unfolds, new struggles and questions arise. right now, however, i have neither the time nor the words to get into all of that (i have to go to a job interview), but i'll do that as soon as i can if it seems like i won't be openning myself to further attack and that people want to talk about it with me.

again, everyone's perspective has been extremely valuable to me.

BeBop

so, here's an abridged version of the latest. i've finally gotten over the shock of all of this only within the last ten days or so. (let me tell you, for any of you out there that haven't experienced this sort of thing, i don't recommend it. it wreaks utter havoc on the emotional body.) now that i've finally got a level head with which to evaluate things, i've told her that i need some space and time to do just that. i've pretty much dealt with the feelings of betrayal and resentment and negativity towards her (there's still some residual stuff but i've got my eyes on it and it's extremely minor by comparison), the question for me becomes one of our inherent bond. that is to say, i understand confusion and getting away from oneself and feeling the need for acceptance and attention in any form with a sense of desperation, but if that could cause her to trounce upon all that was sacred with us, i have to question what kind of bond we really have in the first place. there's no doubt in my mind that we love each other and that we're both good people. yes, stretchin, i do believe she's a good person, and if you really haven't read me saying anything positive about her, than i haven't shed light on her fairly. i mean, she's definitelty good if at times she's demonstrated a pathetic lack of inner strength in areas. saying that makes me sad, but it's undoubtedly true. she's told me that she didn't dissuade his efforts those nights because she just wanted him to like her. i, of course, was in the background with flowers and song, but at that time she felt unappreciated by me and was afraid to trust me with her heart. she wasn't so afraid to trust him because she was too busy unconsciously convincing herself to see things in him that didn't exist. yes, that's lame and stupid and pathetic and whatnot, but she was at her worst by far. i feel like i have to address the comment stretchin made about her not being a confused little girl but rather an adult playing adult games. i know without a doubt that none of what went down was remotely a game to her, and stretchin, you're gonna have to trust my judgement there, because if you don't believe what i'm saying in these posts, then you don't really have anything to respond to, and therefore no basis for response. anyway, for whatever it's worth, that's my take, and that won't change. i'm gonna stop here for now.

so, anyone got any thoughts on inherent bonds between people? any thoughts on space and time apart? any thoughts on the importance of a natural synergy vs. commitment in a relationship?

peace,
BeBop

yeah, man, i hear you. that's a really tough one. i mean, i think that there is no doubt that that ego side of things plays into both of our situations. i'm sure we both took some huge blows there. i'm sure that with the time body and emotional investments that the two of you had, that it's even more intense for you. i can scarcely imagine that at this point, but i know it's got to be true.

i also think that issue breaks down into two. first, there's what you mentioned, which is being the alpha male and not losing out to the other guy. second, there's the need to show the lady that you're worthwhile, thereby showing the same to oneself. when all of this went down with me, i was already in a bad place as far as self acceptance goes. i was depressed and was working a job that i didn't want to be working, and i wasn't feeling able to make any strides in the areas that are most important to me. now it's sad (and it's an issue that needs to be worked out internally) to have any sort of dependence upon one's appeal to someone else in order for one to feel appealing to oneself, but that sort of thing is gonna happen at times if one's got a heart and soul and isn't enlightened yet. many people may contend with that notion and say that they're never dependent upon anything external to feel good about themselves, but unless they're the freaking buddha or something, i'm gonna have to say that it happens to the best of us from time to time, and most of us simply live that way without being willing to recognize it. at any rate, it's a very human concept and predicament, and i think it's safe to say that it's a necessary part of the journey towards self-realization.

throughout this entire ordeal, i've never stopped asking myself what i am to learn from it all. in large part, these issues we are talking about are the exact lessons i think we're meant to take from these situations. for me, i'm getting a better sense of the fine and blurry lines between my ego and my soul, and i'm seeing how each of those are manifest in my life's situations and my relationships with myself, the people around me, and the world in general. all i can do is keep an eye on that stuff and try and feel when and in what part it's active and influencing my behavior. it's good to check one's motivations often. this sort of thing we're dealing with is such a high stakes "game". there is so much potential for harming one another, because of the very reason that this has been so painful for you and i - because at some point we openned our hearts to these women and trusted them with our emotional bodies. that's a two way street, imho, and i feel it's of utmost importance for me to be as responsible with my actions and decisions at this point as i know my girlfriend should have been in the first place. i don't know if i'm even beginning to help with your question, but i'm gonna go on anyway and see if i hit some points.

ok, well, for me, i definitely feel like it would be ideal to transcend those issues of dominance and self-worth in order to make the right choice. i think that's part of what vector(at least i think it was vector) was getting at when he suggested working on myself in the meantime. at the same time, those things are our life journey, and it's not practicle to try and wait until we're perfect and carrying no baggage whatsoever before we begin relating to people. in some sense, we've both overcome the issues or sideskirted them if not transcended them in part by winning our women back. i think that if only now after doing so, you can see that you were motivated by ego bullspit, that's fine. we do the best we can, ya know? it's clear to me that both of us have been working through this stuff with whatever integrety we've been able to sustain. that's all we can ask of ourselves. if it's taken me or you asserting ourselves as deserved victors to realise that the prize isn't worthwhile afterall, than we need to recognize that with integrety and stand by that in our decisions. i'm still trying to figure out whether this is right for me. as much as i don't want to see someone i love in pain on account of me, i know that if it isn't right for me, it can't be right for her either. if the bond we share isn't strong enough for one of us, it's strong enough for neither. i want to be with a woman who would be in that situation and be like, "yeah, right, buddy, who the hell do you think you're dealing with here?" the thing is, she may very well be that woman now. if she is, i certainly wish she didn't have to make the mistake first to learn. i know i didn't have to make that one. i'm fine with people making mistakes, but this one sacrificed so much that meant worlds to me, and it was safrificed by the one person in my life who's not supposed to do that. grrr... i don't know. i'm gonna stop now before i send myself in circles.

i hope something was helpful.

peace,
BeBop

a fine kettle of fish indeed. that's a good one. i can relate to that. i can see it being a mainstay in my vocabulary for years to come.

yeah, i realise you got her back. that's why i think you are probably in a better place to see what mechanisms were at work to motivate you to do so. see, for me (and i imagine for you, too, but correct me if i'm wrong) when this other guy came into the picture, i was consumed with this sense of urgency and i could literally feel my soul trembling. i think it ties right into an evolutionary alpha male directive somehow and is rooted in a more primal part of the brain than rational discrimination. that's my unscientificly informed take, anyhow. i'm simply trying to say that in that condition and headspace, it's damn near impossible to know whether or not she's really worthwhile. i wish you the best, brother. i'll keep checking in and contributing in any ways i can. as far as i'm concerned, this thread is as much for your situation as it is for mine.

a fine kettle of fish it is.

hey, thanks for the comment on my writing. when it comes to me and words in two dimensions, sometimes it works and sometimes it don't. i mostly confine myself to letters, poetry, and lyrics. oh, and lets not forget the labored and ambiguous tirades on bedevilled romance and the soap opera that my life has become.

soul to soul,
BeBop

WillB7 -

www.creativeclassroom.com...l_fish.htm

"A fine kettle of fish

What it means...
A real mess.

Example of usage...
The twins have eaten the steaks we were going to have for the barbecue. This is a fine kettle of fish!

How this idiom came about...
Word has it that it was an 18th century custom for gentlemen living along the Tweed River to picnic with their friends. The main dish was fresh salmon thrown into kettles boiling over firewood. On some days, someone forgot the salt or the kettle would overturn, ruining the picnic. From here came the idiom a fine kettle of fish, meaning one big mess."